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发表于 2012-12-14 13:12 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
受教

提到南京,既然在清朝被称为“江宁”,那在鸦片战争中签订的条约理应被称为“中英江宁条约”,为啥我们只说“南京条约”捏?


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发表于 2012-12-14 13:29 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #29 三种不同的红色 的帖子

镇级市当然有哈,另外从回复看,似乎没有理解我的意思
你举例说明地级市是二级行政区----当然如此,所以我才会说跟过去相比,今天把“市”作为行政区的名称,不是十分严谨。
目前我朝的行政区划层级及名称如下
(一级行政区)省级行政区名称: 省、自治区、(直辖)市、特别行政区;
(二级行政区)地级行政区名称: 地区、盟、自治州、(地级)市;
(三级行政区)县级行政区名称: 县、自治县、旗、自治旗、(县级)市、(市辖)区、林区、特区;
(四级行政区)乡级行政区名称: 乡、民族乡、镇、街道、苏木、民族苏木、(乡级)管理区、(县辖)区、(县辖)市(台湾省专设);
(五级行政区)村级行政区名称: 村、社区、(村级)管理区;
(六级行政区)组级行政区名称: 村民小组、社区居民小组。
-----可见,“市”这个行政区,在省地县乡四个层级竟然都出现,这实在是太欢乐了,想想当我们念着“x省x市x市x市”的时候吧

所以才有前面的观点:“市”的经济属性大于其行政属性,现在亦然

ps:三红原来跟姜维是老乡哈
------------------------------------------
再补充一句:当初中央作出“撤地建市”的决定,也是出于经济建设的考虑

[ 本帖最后由 zidaneluo 于 2012-12-14 13:47 编辑 ]


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发表于 2012-12-14 13:37 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #31 KYOKO 的帖子

这个当时肯定是叫《江宁条约》而不是《南京条约》
原因嘛,就像用“庙号”“谥号”称以前的皇帝一样,习惯
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发表于 2012-12-14 19:42 资料 主页 文集 短消息 只看该作者
南京条约的英文叫:Treaty of Nanking,中文叫江宁条约。
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发表于 2012-12-14 20:41 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者


QUOTE:
原帖由 KYOKO 于 2012-12-14 13:12 发表
受教

提到南京,既然在清朝被称为“江宁”,那在鸦片战争中签订的条约理应被称为“中英江宁条约”,为啥我们只说“南京条约”捏?

条约本来是没有名称的,或者可以说其正式名称是不以签订地点命名的,所以无论是江宁条约还是南京条约都只能是俗称,另外还称白门条约,不同时代的史家在提到这个条约时给安的不同的名字而已。

古代的澶渊之盟、海上之盟、绍兴和议、隆兴和议、嘉定和议,要么以地点命名、要么以时间(年号)命名、甚至还有以使者的往来路线命名的(海上之盟),其实都是史家给安的称呼,没有正式名称,因为条约的文本都是以双方互换诏书中的誓约(平等条约)或者一方给另一方下诏(不平等条约)的形式体现的,而不会写“澶渊之盟 第一条……”

[ 本帖最后由 岳光寒 于 2012-12-14 20:45 编辑 ]
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发表于 2012-12-14 22:37 资料 短消息 只看该作者
镇级市以前火过一阵,后来不了了之。
不过温州的书记换人了之后,就算是最有希望升格为镇级市的瑞安市(县级市)塘下镇和苍南县龙港镇,也没有再提这个话题了。
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发表于 2012-12-14 22:57 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者


QUOTE:
原帖由 岳光寒 于 2012-12-14 20:41 发表

条约本来是没有名称的,或者可以说其正式名称是不以签订地点命名的,所以无论是江宁条约还是南京条约都只能是俗称,另外还称白门条约,不同时代的史家在提到这个条约时给安的不同的名字而已。

古代的澶渊之 ...

即使只是后世或者史家的称呼,那在当时总得有个名称吧?

以《南京条约》为例,当时清朝人会说“根据《江宁条约》,我们割让了香港岛”;还是“根据1840年(当然清朝另有纪年,这里暂用)我们和英国在江宁签订的条约,我们割让了香港岛”。如果没有一个名称来指代“南京条约”的话,岂非很别扭?其余情况类似
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发表于 2012-12-14 23:56 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #37 KYOKO 的帖子

用俗称就行了,当时自然叫江宁条约。
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发表于 2012-12-15 00:12 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者


QUOTE:
原帖由 KYOKO 于 2012-12-14 22:57 发表

即使只是后世或者史家的称呼,那在当时总得有个名称吧?

以《南京条约》为例,当时清朝人会说“根据《江宁条约》,我们割让了香港岛”;还是“根据1840年(当然清朝另有纪年,这里暂用)我们和英国在江宁签 ...

清人李圭笔记《鸦片事略》:二十二年秋,英国公使璞鼎查率马利逊等称兵要抚,至江宁省城。命广州将军宗室耆英、乍浦副都统红带子伊里布为钦差大臣,与璞鼎查议款。遂索款二千一百万两,首列烟价六百万,铺足一千二百万之原数,次列商欠三百万,以粤东原议未及商欠一款也。至战费一千二百万,则自入粤后偿其所失,而香港一岛亦遂予英,且准五口通商。议十三条,谓之《江宁条约》。

《清稗类钞·外交类》:国际赔款,始于道光壬寅《中英江宁条约》。

所以,这个条约在清朝正常情况肯定是叫《江宁条约》的。

可是江宁府的江宁县,——也就是南京城——在清朝大家也习惯称之为“南京”的。所以也不排除这一条约被称作“南京条约”的可能。
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发表于 2012-12-15 04:35 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者 QQ


QUOTE:
原帖由 三种不同的红色 于 2012-12-15 00:12 发表


清人李圭笔记《鸦片事略》:二十二年秋,英国公使璞鼎查率马利逊等称兵要抚,至江宁省城。命广州将军宗室耆英、乍浦副都统红带子伊里布为钦差大臣,与璞鼎查议款。遂索款二千一百万两,首列烟价六百万,铺足 ...

请教下三红:按之前所说,以南京的地位,在当时应该是府一级的大都会。实际上,江宁府也确实存在并且是省会。但当时的笔记,小说里往往江宁府,江宁县混用,到底哪个是现在南京市?抑或是江宁府下辖江宁县,后者是更小范围的市区?还有个问题就是,作为早已不是新朝的“南京应天府”,清人(包括后清)为何仍习惯使用这个俗称,而不是其他诸如“金陵”“建康”“建业”“集庆”(这城咋每朝都换名啊。。。)的旧称?
按北京改北平的规矩,现在该叫南平吧
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发表于 2012-12-15 12:00 资料 主页 文集 短消息 只看该作者
我现在只能看到南京条约的中文原件,那上面确实没有标题名称,江宁条约也只是俗称。

但是wiki的英文条约有如下标题
Treaty of Nanking
Nanking, August 29, 1842
Peace Treaty between the Queen of Great Britain and the Emperor of China
Ratifications exchanged at Hongkong, 26th June 1843  (1842)

不知道英文原件上是不是也有,我觉应该也有,因为我见过凡尔赛合约的英文原件,标题的形式就是这样。
那么就算不叫Treaty of Nanking,也该叫Peace Treaty between the Queen of Great Britain and the Emperor of China
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发表于 2012-12-15 19:12 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #40 XM8 的帖子

当时英国人就把江宁称作Nanking的话,倒也有可能,因为明朝的时候西方就有不少传教士过来了,当时明朝的应天府号称南京,可能已经早被翻译成外文了(欧洲语言都是互通的,尤其在音译方面),后来清朝南京失去陪都资格,改叫江宁,但西方人仍按习惯称Nanking。


另:
凡尔赛条约英文版的封面正式名称是
The Treaty of Peace Between the Allied and Associated Powers and Germany (The protocol annexed thereto, the agreement respecting the military occupation of the territories of the Rhine, and the Treaty Between France and Britain Respecting Assistance to France in the event of unprovoked aggression by Germany).
下面还有一行字—— Signed at Versailles, June 28th, 1919,交待时间地点,应该不算作为正式全称的一部分。但简称 The Treaty of Versailles 应该是没问题的。

[ 本帖最后由 岳光寒 于 2012-12-15 19:25 编辑 ]
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发表于 2012-12-15 19:21 资料 主页 文集 短消息 只看该作者


QUOTE:
原帖由 岳光寒 于 2012-12-15 19:12 发表
当时英国人就把江宁称作Nanking的话,倒也有可能,因为明朝的时候西方就有不少传教士过来了,当时明朝的应天府号称南京,可能已经早被翻译成外文了(欧洲语言都是互通的,尤其在音译方面),后来清朝南京失去陪 ...

要是能找到原件的照片就好了
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发表于 2012-12-15 19:35 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #42 XM8 的帖子

我找到了一版原文,上面确实不止一次提到Nanking。基本可以确定当时英文就叫Nanking。

QUOTE:
            Victoria, by the Grace of God, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc., etc., etc.  To All and Singular to whom these Presents shall come, Greeting!  Whereas a Treaty between Us and Our Good Brother The Emperor of China, was concluded and signed, in the English and Chinese Languages, on board Our Ship the Cornwallis,  at Nanking, on the Twenty-ninth day of August, in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred and Forty-two, by the Plenipotentiaries of Us and Our said Good Brother, duly and respectively authorized for that purpose; which Treaty is hereunto annexed in Original:—

TREATY

            Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and His Majesty the Emperor of China, being desirous of putting an end to the misunderstandings and consequent hostilities which have arisen between the two Countries, have resolved to conclude a Treaty for that purpose, and have therefor named as their Plenipotentiaries, that is to say:—

            Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, Sir Henry Pottinger, Bart., a Major-General in the Service of the East India Company, etc., etc.;

            And His Imperial Majesty the Emperor of China, the High Commissioners Keying, a Member of the Imperial House, a Guardian of the Crown Prince and General of the Garrison of Canton; and Elepoo, of the Imperial Kindred, graciously permitted to wear the insignia of the first rank, and the distinction of a Peacock’s feather, lately Minister and Governor General, etc., and now Lieutenant-General Commanding at Chapoo:

            Who, after having communicated to each other their respective Full Powers and found them to be in good and due form, have agreed upon, and concluded, the following Articles:—

Article I.

            There shall henceforward be Peace and Friendship between Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and His Majesty the Emperor of China, and between their respective Subjects, who shall enjoy full security and protection for their persons and property within the Dominions of the other.

Article II.

            His Majesty the Emperor of China agrees that British Subjects, with their families and establishments, shall be allowed to reside, for the purpose of carrying on their Mercantile pursuits, without molestation or restraint at the Cities and Towns of Canton, Amoy, Foochow-fu, Ningpo, and Shanghai, and Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, etc., will appoint Superintendents or Consular Officers, to reside at each of the above-named Cities or Towns, to be the medium of communication between the Chinese Authorities and the said Merchants, and to see that the just Duties and other Dues of the Chinese Government as hereafter provided for, are duly discharged by Her Britannic Majesty’s Subjects.

Article III.

            It being obviously necessary and desirable, that British Subjects should have some Port whereat they may careen and refit their Ships, when required, and keep Stores for that purpose, His Majesty the Emperor of China cedes to Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, etc., the Island of Hongkong, to be possessed in perpetuity by Her Britannic Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and to be governed by such Laws and Regulations as Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, etc., shall see fit to direct.

Article IV.

            The Emperor of China agrees to pay the sum of Six Millions of dollars as the value of Opium which was delivered up at Canton in the month of March 1839, as a Ransom for the lives of Her Britannic Majesty’s Superintendent and Subjects, who had been imprisoned and threatened with death by the Chinese High Officers.

Article V.

            The Government of China having compelled British Merchants at Canton to deal exclusively with certain Chinese Merchants called Hong Merchants (or Cohong) who had been licensed by the Chinese Government for that purpose, the Emperor of China agrees to abolish that practice in future at all Ports where British Merchants may reside, and to permit them to carry on their mercantile transactions with whatever persons they please, and His Imperial Majesty further agrees to pay to the British Government the sum of Three Millions of Dollars, on account of Debts due to British Subjects by some of the said Hong Merchants (or Cohong), who have become insolvent, and who owe very large sums of money to Subjects of Her Britannic Majesty.

Article VI.   

            The Government of Her Britannic Majesty having been obliged to send out an Expedition to demand and obtain redress for the violent and unjust Proceedings of the Chinese High Authorities towards Her Britannic Majesty’s Officer and Subjects, the Emperor of China agrees to pay the sum of Twelve Millions of Dollars on account of the Expenses incurred, and Her Britannic Majesty’s Plenipotentiary voluntarily agrees, on behalf of Her Majesty, to deduct from the said amount of Twelve Millions of Dollars, any sums which may have been received by Her Majesty’s combined Forces as Ransom for Cities and Towns in China, subsequent to the 1st day of August 1841.

Article VII.

            It is agreed that the Total amount of Twenty-one Millions of Dollars, described in the three preceding Articles, shall be paid as follows:—

            Six Millions immediately.

            Six Millions in 1843.  That is:—Three Millions on or before the 30th of the month of June, and Three Millions on or before the 31st of December.

            Five Millions in 1844.  That is:—Two Millions and a Half on or before the 30th of June, and Two Millions and a Half on or before the 31st of December.

            Four Millions in 1845.  That is:—Two Millions on or before the 30th of June, and Two Millions on or before the 31st of December; and it is further stipulated, that Interest at the rate of 5 per cent. per annum, shall be paid by the Government of China on any portions of the above sums that are not punctually discharged at the periods fixed.

Article VIII.

            The Emperor of China agrees to release unconditionally all Subjects of Her Britannic Majesty (whether Natives of Europe or India) who may be in confinement at this moment, in any part of the Chinese Empire.

Article IX.

            The Emperor of China agrees to publish and promulgate, under His Imperial Sign Manual and Seal, a full and entire amnesty and act of indemnity, to all Subjects of China on account of their having resided under, or having had dealings and intercourse with, or having entered the Service of Her Britannic Majesty, or of Her Majesty’s Officers, and His Imperial Majesty further engages to release all Chinese Subjects who may be at this moment in confinement for similar reasons.

Article X.

            His Majesty the Emperor of China agrees to establish at all the Ports which are by the 2nd Article of this Treaty to be thrown open for the resort of British Merchants, a fair and regular Tariff of Export and Import Customs and other Dues, which Tariff shall be publicly notified and promulgated for general information, and the Emperor further engages, that when British Merchandise shall have once paid at any of the said Ports the regulated Customs and Dues agreeable to the Tariff, to be hereafter affixed, such Merchandise may be conveyed by Chinese Merchants, to any Province or City in the interior of the Empire of China on paying a further amount as Transit Duties which shall not exceed          per cent. on the tariff value of such goods.

Article XI.

            It is agreed that Her Britannic Majesty’s Chief High Officer in China shall correspond with the Chinese High Officers, both at the Capital and in the Provinces, under the term “Communication”          .  The Subordinate British Officers and Chinese High Officers in the Provinces under the terms “Statement”         on the part of the former, and on the part of the latter “Declaration”           , and the Subordinates of both Countries on a footing of perfect equality.  Merchants and others not holding official situations and, therefore, not included in the above, on both sides, to use the term “Representation”           in all papers addressed to, or intended for the notice of the respective Governments.

Article XII.

            On the assent of the Emperor of China to this Treaty being received and the discharge of the first instalment of money, Her Britannic Majesty’s Forces will retire from Nanking and the Grand Canal, and will no longer molest or stop the Trade of China.  The Military Post at Chinhai will also be withdrawn, but the Islands of Koolangsoo and that of Chusan will continue to be held by Her Majesty’s Forces until the money payments, and the arrangements for opening the Ports to British Merchants be completed.

Article XIII.

            The Ratification of this Treaty by Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, etc., and His Majesty the Emperor of China shall be exchanged as soon as the great distance which separates England from China will admit; but in the meantime counterpart copies of it, signed and sealed by the Plenipotentiaries on behalf of their respective Sovereigns, shall be mutually delivered, and all its provisions and arrangements shall take effect.

            Done at Nanking and Signed and Sealed by the Plenipotentiaries on board Her Britannic Majesty’s ship Cornwallis, this twenty-ninth day of August, 1842, corresponding with the Chinese date, twenty-fourth day of the seventh month in the twenty-second year of Taou Kwang.

(L.S.)     HENRY POTTINGER,

Her Majesty’s Plenipotentiary

Chinese Signatures (3).*

Chinese

Seal

            We, having seen and considered the Treaty aforesaid, have approved, accepted, and confirmed the same in all and every one of its Articles and Clauses, as We do by these Presents approve, accept, confirm, and ratify it for Ourselves, Our Heirs, and Successors:— Engaging and Promising upon Our Royal Word, that We will sincerely and faithfully perform and observe all and singular the things which are contained and expressed in the Treaty aforesaid, and that We will never suffer the same to be violated by any one, or transgressed in any manner, as far as it lies in Our Power.

            For the greater Testimony and Validity of all which, We have caused the Great Seal of Our United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to be affixed to these Presents, which We have signed with Our Royal Hand.

            Given at Our Court at Windsor Castle, the Twenty-eighth day of December, in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred and Forty-two, and in the Sixth Year of Our Reign.

(Signed)       Victoria R.

* The preamble mentions two Chinese negotiators only, Qi-ying and Yi-li-bu.  The third signature was that of Niu Jian, Liang-jiang Viceroy.

[ 本帖最后由 岳光寒 于 2012-12-15 19:38 编辑 ]
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发表于 2012-12-16 16:07 资料 文集 短消息 只看该作者 QQ


QUOTE:
原帖由 KYOKO 于 2012-12-14 13:12 发表
受教

提到南京,既然在清朝被称为“江宁”,那在鸦片战争中签订的条约理应被称为“中英江宁条约”,为啥我们只说“南京条约”捏?

并不是“南京在清朝叫江宁”,南京是南京,江宁是江宁,这是两个不同的概念。
江宁府是一级行政区划,府。南京则是指一个城市,不是行政区划。南京是江宁府辖区内的一个城(市),古代不叫城市,就叫城。南京城应隶属江宁府江宁县,类似的,北京城隶属顺天府宛平县,上海城隶属松江府上海县,济南城隶属济南府历城县。现代“城、市、县”不分,你要说去“南京”,那么去到南京的11区2县都算去“南京”。但是在古代你要说去南京,那么进了南京城才算,在城门外头也不算。
其实现在你要看地图册,比如介绍南京,也是分“南京城”和“南京市”来介绍的,前者就相当于古代的南京城,后者就相当于古代的江宁府。只不过现在把做为地理区域的“城”和做为行政区划的“市”用同一个名字,容易引起混乱而已。
《南京条约》,表示它是在南京城签订的,如果叫《江宁条约》,那么就表示是在江宁府辖区内签订,这个范围未免太大,太含糊。就如有人问你是哪里人,是希望你回答某省某县之类,你要回答是中国人或是地球人,未免玩笑。
现在的南京(地级)市,清朝称为江宁府。现在的南京(市区),清朝就叫南京。

[ 本帖最后由 五袋石果 于 2012-12-16 17:06 编辑 ]
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发表于 2012-12-16 18:22 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者


QUOTE:
原帖由 慕容心 于 2012-12-15 04:35 发表


请教下三红:按之前所说,以南京的地位,在当时应该是府一级的大都会。实际上,江宁府也确实存在并且是省会。但当时的笔记,小说里往往江宁府,江宁县混用,到底哪个是现在南京市?抑或是江宁府下辖江宁县,后者是更小范围的市区?还有个问题就是,作为早已不是新朝的“南京应天府”,清人(包括后清)为何仍习惯使用这个俗称,而不是其他诸如“金陵”“建康”“建业”“集庆”(这城咋每朝都换名啊。。。)的旧称?
按北京改北平的规矩,现在该叫南平吧

是这样的,江宁府下辖7个县,分别是江宁县、上元县、句容县、溧水县、江浦县、六合县、高淳县。

其中,江宁、上元两县是同城而治,也就是说,同一个城中分了两县,以内秦淮河为界,河北为上元,河南为江宁。但江宁府的治所在江宁县。

明朝叫它南京,是因为它确实是明朝的一个首都。清朝时取消了它首都地位,自然就不能叫南京了,改叫江宁。民国临时政府成立后,以此为首都,因此又将江宁府改名叫南京府。袁世凯任大总统后,以北京为首都,再一次将它改回江宁府。国民政府成立,又以其为首都,于是再次改名南京,而把北京改名北平。到本朝建立时,只改了北京的名字,却没有将南京改回去。

至于#45楼的说法,我认为显然是不对的。

事实上在清人笔记中,对这个城市更多的称呼是“江宁城”。

譬如《张文襄公事略》中,讲张之洞任南洋大臣时,“复于其间辟江宁城内马路,排百难而为之,群力阻公,公皆径行不顾”。

又如王闿运《湘军志》:“援寇还江宁城者皆不敢出”

清朝也有称其为南京城的,譬如,太平军攻克南京,但六合县坚守不下,终未攻克,时坊间有童谣称“纸糊南京城,铁铸六合县”。——但称呼“南京称”的显然没有称“江宁城”的多。

所以,45楼认为南京是城的名字,这显然是不对的。
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发表于 2012-12-16 22:16 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #45 五袋石果 的帖子

南京是京府之号,不可能是城名,清朝官方也不大可能允许人们继续叫它南京,毕竟曾是明朝的首都,朱元璋的陵也在这里,增其王气的事,清朝统治者应该不会这么干(若干年后太平天王国还跑到这里盘踞)。想想宋太宗下太原之后怎么折腾的,统治者很忌讳这个的。但由于历史原因、文化隔阂以及翻译过程中的不够严谨,老外认为这城叫Nanking倒有可能。

开始是江宁条约,但民国时我们又把这里改叫南京了,又为了跟老外统一,于是都叫南京条约了。你自己看看条约的原文,中文版原文提到的都是江宁,只字未提南京,而英文版的都用Nanking,这是我之前猜测的,这个城早在明朝可能就已经扬名了。

另外签约的地方不在南京城里!!而在停靠在南京的英国船上。船不可能开到城里吧?

[ 本帖最后由 岳光寒 于 2012-12-16 22:29 编辑 ]
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发表于 2012-12-16 22:31 资料 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
其实,江宁在清朝俗称南京,这只可能是民间的习称。

就如同国民政府时期,把北京改名叫北平了,但那些老少爷们提笼遛鸟时,开口闭口照样是“咱北京城里”如何如何。

所以,如同我上面举的例子,在“纸糊南京城,铁铸六合县”这样的民谣中,或者是小说中,多有叫南京的。

但在正式的书面文字中,就很正规的称之为“江宁”了。
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发表于 2012-12-18 07:49 资料 文集 短消息 只看该作者 QQ
三红和寒兄所说甚是。
那么,两位显然也认可城与县、府是有区别的,这就是我最想表达的意思。
至于石头城在清朝有没有被称为南京的事情,三红说了,有的。我理解为官方甚少使用,民间则大量使用。
寒兄认为政府可能不允许石头城叫“京”,我认为这应该不是大问题,毕竟是民间俗称。唐有两京,宋有四京,明有两京,清有两京,石头城被民间俗称为南京,应该不算犯什么忌讳的事情。
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发表于 2012-12-18 09:38 资料 主页 个人空间 短消息 只看该作者
回复 #49 五袋石果 的帖子

民间俗称的话自然大家认可就行,但我觉得如果追究起来,还是犯忌讳的,没法一一追究罢了。

京府之号不可能作为城名自然是官方城名,所谓东京城、南京城也只能说民间习惯说法,不是正式名称,而且两国签约大事,用民间俗称太不严谨了,所以我觉得是早就有翻译,撰写条约时援例而已,而不是现访得民间俗称为南京的。
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